RACISM AND THE IDENTITY OF BLACKNESS IN AMERICA

Racism and the Identity of Blackness in America

Author Interviews with

Emmanuel Sogah and Genevieve Balance Kupang

The authors published their full paper in the WCCI Newsletter Spring 2021 issue, which can be found on this Website: https://wcci-international.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Spring-2021-Newsletter.pdf

Read more about WCCI by following additional links on the site above.

Overview

In this episode the authors reflect on their paper and experiences as they attempt to provide a deconstructive, anti-racial, and mindset-shifting education for appropriate anthropological understanding of human identity, dignity, and ethnicity. It describes clearly and movingly an African’s experience of systemic racism in America and makes the argument against the racialization of people of African descent (PAD) as "black" — a globally adopted and imposed color-labelled identity of Africans in general.

Giving a historical background of European explorers’ first encounter with the Afris on the African continent in the late 1500s, the paper poignantly highlights the explorers’ color-labeling description of, and racial "prejudication" against, Africans as inferior humans, leading to their subsequent kidnapping and enslavement, which drew the Catholic Church’s mediocre efforts against slavery.

Dr. Genevieve Balance Kupang (Genie) is an anthropologist, consultant, researcher, and advisor to individuals and organizations engaged in working for justice, peace, integrity of creation, the indigenous peoples, and societal transformation processes. She is a peace educator, an interreligious dialogue practitioner, author with a career in the academe and NGO. She was the SIG Coordinator for Peace Education in the Taiwan (2012) and San Diego Conference. Currently the Chair of WCCI SIG.https://www.dropbox.com/s/m7wx7t7t9vdbpoc/podcastEpisode2-Sogahkupangzoom.mov?dl=0

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah, an AFRICAN native of Ghana and US citizen, is a catholic theologian and a non-ordained missionary with the Johannine Missions, USA. He has travelled extensively across the globe engaging in cross-cultural Catholic evangelization, educational seminars, and mission research. He is also a consultant, a mentor, keynote speaker, and program facilitator for ministry leadership, governance, and professional development, and has served the Catholic Church for the past 35 years in various ministry capacities in Africa, Asia, Europe, and North America. He holds a doctorate in Theological Education, a Masters in Systematic Theology, and a Baccalaureate in Philosophy and Anthropology.

A quiet musician, a great cook, a spiritual counselor, and an avid public speaker and teacher. Dr. Sogah enjoys playing the piano, composing worship music, spending quiet time in prayer and reflections, and serving at his parish. He does gardening during the spring and summer, and goes on missionary and research travels; researching, and engaging in informal practical Christian life formation. Besides English, he speaks a few other languages, including Akan (Ghanaian) Chinese, French, Hausa, and some Spanish, some Swahili, and some Tagalog.  

Link to Zoom Video:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m7wx7t7t9vdbpoc/podcastEpisode2-Sogahkupangzoom.mov?dl=0

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Transcript

Racism and the Identity of Blackness in America

Transcript Synopsis of Author Interviews with

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah and Dr. Genevieve Balance Kupang

WORLD CONFERENCE ON CURRICULUM & INSTRUCTION (WCCI) NEWSLETTER PODCAST CONVERSATIONS ON EDUCATING FOR INTERCULTURAL UNDERSTANDING AND ANTI-RACISM

Affiliated with sponsor Alliant International University – San Diego, CA and UNESCO - NGO

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer and Editor(00:00):

WELCOME back to another episode and good morning,  good day or good evening, wherever you might be!

It's certainly good to be here today and to interview these authors for the WCCI newsletter conversations. And we're so excited to have them here for the audiences who are tuning in for the first time. I'd like to just give you a brief introduction to this podcast and what it's all about. This is called the WCCI newsletter editor conversations. It's an invitational podcast that features authors who publish in the WCCI newsletter.  It's published approximately three times a year. We publish two thematic issues and then we'll do an invitational theme issue. The invitation issue that these articles was published in was called Educating for Intercultural Understanding and Anti-Racism for this free podcast. The purpose is to get the audience interested in submitting to the WCCI newsletter or perhaps becoming a member of this international organization. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (01:12):

We continue the conversation that started with articles published in a the WCCI spring 2021 newsletter and perhaps reading our newsletter and Website information will encourage you to even join WCCI. So the global education conversations is a space that is safe and it is a place where we hope to meet others across the globe. We encourage reading about and talking about education, culture, technology, and life, as it is now, including conditions that might be affecting the betterment of being who we are. So we all know right now that the pandemic, as well as racial unrest is changing the world. We’re here today to answer the question of “why”? We'll begin by asking each author, tell us a little bit about themselves through their research. Thank you for being here. We'll begin with Dr. Genevieve. 

Genevieve Balance Kupang (02:32):

Okay, well I'm “Jenny” [inaudible]. I have joined WCCI since 1998. I am currently a special interest groups chair of the world council for curriculum and instruction. I greet you all with peace, joy and well-being. The research I do are themes related to peace education, spirituality, world religions, the Medalla arts inter-religious dialogue and eagerness peoples. I became curious about the specific issue on racism when I was tasked to be the coordinator of the special interest groups of peace education in that Taiwan conference in 2012, while vital developments have been accomplished in many areas as regard to speech education that addresses inclusion, tolerance, unity and diversity societies are still played by racism, discrimination and inequalities. My curiosity about power soon started with the people of color in the states. When watching the news, it seems now the violence from systemic racism is carried out by the policing agency that is mandated to safeguard those in your country [USA]. 

Genevieve Balance Kupang (03:59):

And instead what we watch is that members of the United States police force are the ones doing the bad violent acts. This makes us so sad and feel for our human brothers and sisters in the USA who faced those kinds of violence. Then this curiosity led me to read a brutal history of slavery… Lynching. I didn't know that term before I read about the racism in the U S and continued oppression of people of color or due to info variation or complexion in 2019, I have invited brother Emmanuel to join me along with another panel connected to a radio interview in one of the places here in the Philippines. After that radio talk show, we went to eat in a restaurant and while waiting in the restaurant brother, Manuel called my attention to see him as an African-American, while he told me to look at how people look at him, interestingly. So I give the floor now to brother Emmanuel to talk more about himself. Thank you. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (05:12):

That was certainly enlightening. And when I started reading the article, I couldn't stop reading it. I read it so many times first, just as an individual, as a person of color. And then second, I began to read it from a scholarly basis and then just from a humanistic perspective. And so I do see so much richness in the work and research that you each are doing and how relevant it is. Thank you, Dr. Kupang for your work. Would you tell us a little bit more about your experience Dr. Emmanuel? 

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah (05:57):

So my name is Emanuel Sogah and I'm a Catholic theologian and missionary. I was originally born in Ghana, part of my growing up also in England and then I relocated to the United States for graduate studies and then I've remained and been doing ministry in a sense. I basically focused my research and mission in terms of how effective the Christian mission is in promoting the principles and the values of the eternal kingdom of our creator in the various parts of the world and how that has impacted integral human development and wholeness. However, my experience in the USA of being racially labeled and categorized as black, you know, got me curious and looking the last 25 years into why people of African descent are labeled as blacks and why it has been accepted globally. 

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah (07:17):

And so that got me into reading and researching and doing seminars. And I remember one time doing a seminar at the Howard university in Washington DC. at the end of the seminar many of the participants, really were not happy about it. You know, they were criticizing me saying, you are not proud of who you are as a black man and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, I'm sorry, but you know, growing up in Africa, in Ghana, I was never taught that I was black. So, and I don't see the reason why I should now come in and embrace an identity in a foreign land that may or may not know much about my culture. So, it's something that had to be addressed. And so I was really fascinated myself when I dove into the research deeper to find perhaps how it all started. And, and so when Dr. Pan invited me to co-write this article with her, I was really elated to do that. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (08:34):

Well, this is really wonderful. And it speaks to my heart as an African-American or black person in America. So many labels, they put on us here in the U S and I myself experienced some of what you describe, therefore, I can relate to what you talking about, because I can remember my sisters and I growing up and people would actually ask us about our heritage, particularly, not just black people, but white people as well. They would ask us, what are you, what are you mixed with? What would we, of course be racially based on one drop blood rule in America back in the forties and the fifties would be black or African American because, if you mix with anything, it doesn't matter your label was . . .You're black, you're, African-American, you're not allowed to take credit for those other cultures that might come from your mixed heritage. And so that has always been a dilemma. My grandchildren now they ask  the same question. . . “what are we, who are we?” Racial rhetoric results in many children of color questioning their identity.

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (09:31):

My family is comprised of mixed heritages. They are black, white, Spanish descent including Dominican Republic and Mexico. And so when I have all of this mixture in my family, and our children become confused. Sometimes there's no box for them to check. The teacher tells children must choose an identity by putting a check for one or the other…What do I do – the children wonder? And so it is a dilemma. It is in terms of how race identifies us. And so we want to continue to explore this and hopefully find some answers for your work. So while Dr. Genevieve rejoins, that's going to continue with you beginning with the first question, how long did it take in terms of time researching this topic for your article or did it just emerge? 

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah (10:43):

As I mentioned in the introduction, yes, I had been researching this for the past 25 years. It began when I first arrived in the United States and I had to go for my driver's license and social security and all that. And I had to fill out these forms, you know, and then I was really shocked the first time that I had to check this racial category and, you know, so I'm looking at all these things and I'm like, okay, so black, okay. I'm not black, I'm not white. I am not native Alaskan. I'm not Indian, I'm not Asian, but I don't see any, but there's other. So I checked the other box and wrote African. And when I handed the form to this lady the lady looked at it all and she just crossed out my of writing of African, and then she checked black. 

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah (11:48):

And I'm like, ma'am, um, why did you cross out what I wrote in and check black because I, I don't consider myself black. And she looked at me with this sort of smacking look, disgusting, look, and like, what do you mean you're not black? You know, you are as black as my [censored]. And that really kind of took me back, you know, it got me curious, you know, I began to look into, why am I being labeled? And in having this black thing imposed on me, you know, when I've never known myself or never identified myself as such. So, it got me really thinking about it. And, and then even when I started studying, it became more evident that, so this is actually an issue in this country. So that got me looking into how it came about that in a certain segment of human beings are being labeled by color and called black and others called white. It's so interesting. 

Joyce Pittman: Interviewer: Hearing his story. How did your story intersect with his research and your personal experience? 

Genevieve Balance Kupang (13:16):

As an outsider, watching the news of the horrors of racism in the United States and how this has repeatedly been going on year after year, because as his advocate and professor we talk about it in class and how the first world country who was supposed to manifest the values that we teach in terms of democracy, respect for others. And so on human rights, why is it that we see this happening year after year in the USA? And so as a friend, I requested brother Manuel to relate to us, to me and to the readers his story. 

Genevieve Balance Kupang (14:29):

And that has got me curious, actually, but for me personally, as an indigenous person here in the mountain province, in the Cordelia region, it's about 12, 10 to 12 hours’ drive from Metro Manila, where the Capitol is, we also have experienced sort of discrimination in the sense that they label us like you are people from the mountain. And so, so, you know, the first time also I went to Manila and I speak this way, I speak good English. And they would say, why isn't it, the people who come from the mountain speak this way. So in a way, those are the kinds of things I have experience when I went out of my whole town to know, you know, to mingle with people in the lowlands. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (15:44):

Probably most prevalent in world slavery was that many blacks gradually migrated to the north in search of more freedom. You've heard about the great migration. And so we were part of that as a family living in this area that was deep south, and pretty much just a mixture of different races and cultures in area where we sort of migrated to. And we had a language that was sort of a mixture of different dialects and English was a little bit different. And so when we went to school problem, because they said, what language, what do you talk? What did that, cause we said words differently. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (16:30):

And so, as a result of that language distinction, we became more conscious of our differences. I know editors sometimes request edits to our stories when we write our narratives, we have to edit out, we, we don't get everything published. What was it that you wanted to say in this article, particularly as it relates to anti-racism that became what you thought was somewhat important t, what do you see as the punches, when it comes to talking about these issues? 

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah (17:22):

So the, the original article was more focused on my personal experience and the obvious sociopolitical structure of racism in the United States. And that, um, I had never experienced that racism, you know, growing up in Africa or in England. Um, when I lived there before relocating to the United States, I also expressed my sense that black lives matter movement, the black lives matter movement in the United States, that that doesn't seem to really address the issues, but rather tends to perpetuate racism in America, because you are basically taking on the very identity that gets you segregated, and you are claiming that as your identity and so for that fact, and the fact that you know, anthropologically, no traditional human society ever identified itself by color and we are all humans with Karta or native identity and not by color identity. 

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah (18:45):

So as such all human lives matter, you know, because I don't really believe that any human being has a color identity. I also mentioned the superpower economics of new colonization that is fueled by racism and of which China is now a major player. However, after the initial submission of the article, the editors drew my attention to the facts with references that other people of African descent all around the world, experienced racism, wherever they are, whether they dress the UK or Australia or Canada and so on and in other parts of the world as such, um, and that the African-Americans and sympathizers of the black lives matter movement find this statement all lives matter very offensive and publishing that would not be consistent with the values and principles of WCC I's vision and mission. And then the third,  was that my segment on nuclearization of Africa is to bear and fails to take into account. the, the fact that there is an internal structural violence in which national and local leaders in these various countries are enriching themselves in maintaining the status quo that promotes neo-colonization and corruption for that magic. So I had to edit out this segments out of the adequate. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (20:37):

All right and certainly, you know as an editor, I try not to take one position or another because I certainly believe that everyone has a right to their own experience and to share their story from their experience, from their knowledge, based on how they interpret the world, we all interpret the world differently. We all interpret it from beginning with self. You know, that's why we conduct narrative research. We conduct phenomenology studies that study and constructivism social constructivism, which says that meaning is through the eyes of the person who's experienced What are your comments about editing and speaking? 

Genevieve Balance Kupang(21:53):

I am a phenomenologist. We also have our way of interpreting our own narratives. I really have learned a lot from where Dr. Sogah is coming from, you know, and that has to be respected. It made me actually,  research more on what he was saying. Then I could not agree more with what he experienced.  So it's good to reread the article, because there is so much to learn there. It made me research more because there are many things I have learned from him, which I going to tell him in the next question. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (22:58):

Yeah. And that's what I always tell my doctoral students. I said, do you ever think about the word research? It means just that ----re-search, what you think, you know, you might not know and you don't know what you don't know. 

Genevieve Balance Kupang: So always be open to new ideas because that is how we continue to learn as well. And that's how we create intercultural understanding, by listening because we do question these things in a way, in a place where it's what we call a safe place, where you don't feel as if you have to compromise your own philosophical beliefs, that of another, but yet we all have to do this together. I've always said integration never worked well because people felt like they would be forced to give up a part of themselves that they thought what's a value they didn't want to. And we never really, really in this country found a way to coexist. And that is why we have this issue today of different colors, nationalities, tension that we now face and coming out challenge in all other sorts of ways because we never resolved the issue. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (24:38):

Dr. Emmanuel, while Dr. Kupang reconnects her audio, we do understand technical issues because of the distance and we are moving as quickly as we can, but yet we want to get some more depth. We have few more questions and we certainly will be able to, once we schedule our webinar this fall, we will have a full audience participation and more time to really get into these, these issues of intercultural and racial understanding. 

Dr. Emmanuel, when it comes to writing about social behavioral issues, given what we just talked about in terms of controversy, and I know that you are an experienced researcher now, but if you could think back, what would you tell your younger writing self about all, what their research would be or how they, how then we'll see we'll dress the addressing social behavioral issues and why they shouldn't back away? 

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah (25:50):

Yes. So, I will tell my younger writing self not to wait too long to write about such pressing issues. So passionate to me and to remind, you know, in writing, you get to also reminded in society that each human person needs to be respected. And each human person needs to be proud of who they are. First of all, as human persons that God created each one of us with unique values and the dignity that needs to be respected and cherished and lived out in service of one another. And that no human person is created superior to another and to stand up for what to stand up against, what is wrong and to stand up for the truth, defend the truth. Even if the whole world that is not, you know, saying that this is something to be cherished. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (27:00):

Oh my God, that is so powerful. That is a podcast. Message for sure! I can't help, but to share this because that is a powerful message. And it really does speak to young researchers who want to address the social issues. But oftentimes they fear that their work will be perceived too early in their career as being, too narrow in scope, limited to the opposition or not with the main stream research agendas. So they want to please their committees. They want to please the audience. And so they need to understand that's not what we call  rigorous research activity and nor is that a part of approach to providing that research fidelity. 

Joyce Pittman: Okay. That same question Dr. Kupang. The question was when writing about social behavioral, controversial issues, thinking about your younger writing self, now that you're more of a research tool, what would you advise? Younger researchers? 

Genevieve Balance Kupang (28:08):

Okay. what I wish that my younger writing style is to always remember that we are interlinked and interconnected in Filipino. So if we heard others, we also heard ourselves, I will assure my younger writing self to always see the beauty of ethnic and religious diversity, and to be able to appreciate and learn from the similarities as well as the differences of people coming from diverse backgrounds and nationalities. And to always remember how glorious and satisfying it is to have friends from many corners of the globe who have the say, who have different colors complex Shaun, but who are gorgeous, who are gorgeous. For example, like Dr. Joyce is charming and who is as lovely as I am, no matter the skin color or appearance. So you see, I have gained a lot of friends because of my openness to accept them. 

Genevieve Balance Kupang (29:22):

And that no matter where we were born, the state or the country, we come from, whether that is close to the sea or up here in the mountain, like my place or in the city, it does not matter that each of us are human beings, no matter the skin selection that each us, this is very important is a beloved child of God, is this, it is, we are beloved child of the universe, the serving respect, human dignity, and equal opportunities to be free, to live fully and to be, and to be no matter our skin complexion. That's what I'm going to say regarding my younger self about the issue and racism again. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman: So enlightenment, I can't wait to share this podcast with even my own doctoral students so that they can hear different perspectives from different parts of the world. Um, particularly in regards to this issue of cultural understanding and anti-racism. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (30:29):

So our next conversations  are centered on the artistic process in terms of social and emotional  behavior as a researcher, an individual, or how has this work changed your perspectives? Has this changed you? And is there is anything else that you'd like to leave with us, either one of you?

Genevieve Balance Kupang: I would like to say that I felt bad for my brother Emmanuel upon learning the bias treatment he experienced, and then reading and researching the history of racism in the states, how the attitudes of bigotry and narrow-mindedness impacted people who were treated as if they are not human beings. You know, it pains me as a mother to see, especially George Floyd, when he was calling his mother. It pains me to see, because even if he's already a child, me as a mother would be, my humanity was touch. If only I was there as some other, you know, to grab him there from that kind of pain, because I cannot tolerate that my child be treated that way. So by anybody else. So, but I will let my brother Manuel to express more lengthily. 

Dr. Emmanuel Sogah (32:20):

So the most difficult part of this writing process was during the revision, um, having received the editorial feedback after the initial submission. And I felt like I had to water down an issue that I was very passionate about, especially in, regarding my identity as an African. Um, I also grappled with the fact that it is a common, it has become a common place for post-modern social constituents, um, and even highly educated and notable people in the world today to buy in, into, and to go along with this racial categorization and subtle dehumanization of a particular native people and accepted as normal. So, as I reflect on these things, I really felt a sort of numb in my brain as to, well, how else can I express this issue? But I was glad to be able to gather and to be able to,  , complete the article. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (33:34):

Well, it certainly has been a great experience, not just reading your article, but more so the conversation that we've had today, because it does make a difference when we hear your voice, voices are important. We all want our voices to be heard. It's one thing to write about it and to do people read about it, but actually be able to express it as well. And so we really appreciate your taking your time to be with us here today. And for those who have not read your article, when we send out the link, we will certainly direct them to the newsletter so that they can meet the full article. It, we will be inviting you once again in the fall to participate in our larger conference, which we're calling a webinar and what we will have formal presentations, where you'll be able to add to expand, or however you want to present your work in this area. 

Dr. Joyce Pittman, Interviewer (34:40):

Thank you again, audience for tuning in with us. We've been talking today with Emmanuel Sogah and Genevieve Balance Kupang and we hope that you will read the article if you've not read it. And we look forward to you joining us in future podcasts. 

Our next podcast will focus on reflections from the racial divide and pipelines that matter with Dr. Mateen Royeen from the United States and Afghanistan who is also conducting research on related topics. And so we look forward to seeing following up on this podcast and it's going to be a wonderful reunion when we all come together, this fall 2021 in our WCCI Webinar to talk about these articles and the lessons learned. 

So again, thank you for being part of this podcast series. And we look forward to the next time, please continue to write, submit your articles to the WCCI newsletter as well as for the journal. And we will talk with you later.